APS1: Hanging 10 in Google Wave

Robin Smail: Yes, I'm Robin2go. I'm always 'ready to go'.

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: That's why they put me on at 8:30 to go. Oh.

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: Oh, baby. You're even taking care of my dongle, I love it. OK, cool.

Speaker 2: Whoa.

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: So I expect you to be kind because it's 8:30.

And, clearly, this is one of those things where we wish that things had gone a little bit better--at least some of us wish that things went a little bit better--because here I am talking about something that is going to be gone by the end of the year.

Speaker 3: I'm a little unsatisfied.

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: So we're going to have some fun because, quite frankly, I have no, repeat, no influence here, and I'm clearly not going to get a Red Stapler award. So I kind of offset that by saying, fine, you know what? We're going to have a little bit of fun.

Wait--how many people are here because they thought they were going to learn something?

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: Two.

[Laughter]

Speaker 2: Three should be...

Robin Smail: I was going to say, you do have time to hit somebody else. This is a little bit more of entertainment value. But, you know, it goes with that.

So I'm Robin Smail, otherwise known as Robin2go. I'm a disruptive technologist, believe it or not, at Penn State. The throat here is compliments of cohorts in crime from last night that were doing "Dance, dance, baby, dan da da dan dan da na."

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: And there are no videos, right? But there's Anne.

[Laughter]

Speaker 3: With lots of videos.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Robin Smail: But there's Anne.

Speaker 3: There's video.

Robin Smail: Oh, good.

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: Yay. My job here is done.

So I just want to say that it's one of those things that--I was really into Google Wave. I know there were the few, the hardcore, we were into Google Wave. We were actually doing it.

So when Google decided to kind of cut us off the knees, I already put this entry in for HighEdWeb. I had already gotten accepted. I was already planning my party track. And then they came up with that. So I got a little irritated. Well, OK, maybe a lot irritated. So, you know...

How many people know "Firefly"? [Pause] I heard, "Of course."

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: So I'm going to tell you now: in case you don't realize it, the creators, the team for Google Wave also enjoyed "Firefly"--a few good references--that's why they called it 'Wave' because in "Firefly" they actually use waves as forms of communication.

When they killed Wave, I was a fan of both Wave and "Firefly", and this is kind of where I was.

[Video Presentation]

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: No alcohol. I'm not kidding. That's the problem?

Speaker 2: Not necessary.

Robin Smail: Not necessary.

So after I did that, I'm kind of, "Well, crap, now what will I do?" because I'm not giving up my time to go to my favorite conference here just because people decided to get rid of an application.

And it kind of got me thinking, 'What exactly happened and why exactly did it go wrong?' I don't know that I have the answers, but I have some thoughts. And unless you don't realize it, I am always happy to share my thoughts.

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: So, wow, I'm off here, too. No, that's not it.

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: You know, I can see we're full of bounty here because I'm going to trip over something or I'm going to cause some lovely lag. Eh! Let's go. Hey, thanks for that help there, son. Oh, good. It's right there. We're good. We're relaxed. We're casual. We're happenin'. It's fine. Thanks.

So...betrayal. And, Tony, I'm sorry. I didn't realize until I was halfway through putting my stuff together that it looked like I was stealing from you from last year. But, you know, if it gives me high marks, I'm OK with that. So just letting you know.

Speaker 2: My lawyer will be calling.

Robin Smail: OK.

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: Sounds good.

So, you know, I feel betrayed, man. I worked in the wave. I worked in the clouds. I worked up here where you can't touch where my stuff is.

OK. But...my work. And I got to thinking that, here's the problem is that working in technology and working in the cloud, this kind of betrayal where they decide to cut something off because it's not giving them the right information, it's not giving them the right user base, they don't get enough interest--you know what? It may be sudden, but it's also inevitable.

So death. Wow, this is really hard for you guys to see. I don't know if we can turn the lights off. I don't know if they don't want to do that because you guys might go to sleep, and I'm sorry about that. Or we could do that, too.

So we all have different reactions to death. We had a team at ETS who actually worked with Google. We actually got really into it. We used it for event-planning. We used it for meetings and agendas.

At Penn State we have 24 campuses, and so it's a little on the big side, it's a little on the cumbersome side. But one of the things that was fabulous about Google Wave was the collaborative aspect. You can't get around that.

To be able to collaborate in real time and have an argument with somebody somewhere on a different campus, and where we were exploring options, we were brainstorming, things that we were trying to figure out, it really kind of blows the mind.

And in my feeling, "Firefly" was sort of before its time. That's how I felt about Google Wave.

So I kind of think acting psychotic, messing with someone's mind can be really, really funny. I kind of think--wow, man, you can't see these are great slides. I'm telling you what: just have some more coffee, it will get better.

We really talked a lot about why Google decided to do this, and there was a lot of commentary about this was going to be... This is a heartless, cruel decision. They didn't have enough adoption.

I think that's true, the adoption part. So I think that that really, quite frankly, when you get down to it, is about dollars and sense. But I think that the reason they didn't get it and the reason they didn't have the adoption was something totally different.

So this is about communication. Is there someone that you're good at talking to? I don't know about your universities and your work environment, but at Penn State, there's a lot of political stuff that goes on. So, yeah, I know. Shocker!

So what happens then is that we have people literally that we put on committees not because they're going to do work but because it's politically correct for them to be there. Right?

Oh, thank you. That's helpful.

And then the other people who are on the committee to do the work end up doing all the work. So it's a very lopsided thing.

And then you have people who actually get on the committee, but they're not in this location because that was political, but they can't make the meetings. But then they whine about not being able to actually put their thoughts in. And I'm thinking, 'How is this possible in this day and age?'

Well, for us, Google Wave actually solved that. So we were able to, after the initial craziness of, "Oh my God, how does this work? What's going on?" we actually got into a flow and a rhythm that was able to take a little bit of sense. And more importantly, we actually pulled 'All of your base are belong to us', quite frankly.

There was no longer an excuse for people to be gone. There was no longer an excuse for people not to be collaborating with us. There was no longer an excuse--if they couldn't be there in person, which was fine, at least they could have their thoughts heard, they could participate. And if they didn't want to participate, clearly the onus was on them at that point.

But, still, technology isn't all it's cracked up to be.

How many people actually used Wave? [Pause] About three-quarters of you. How many--whoa!

Speaker 2: Light show!

Robin Smail: Dude! Yeah, but at least it shows up better.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Robin Smail: Thank you, sir. I don't mind being in the dark. I can do all sorts of things then.

How many of you--

Speaker 4: If you could adjust the focus a little bit, it would definitely help on the screen, I guess.

Robin Smail: That means I'm going to have to go around again. You want to try that? Thank you!

Speaker 4: Now that we can see it, it's a little blurry.

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: Well. Honey, that was last night.

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: All right. So, again, the people who...

[Applause]

Robin Smail: Oh yeah, baby! Fifteen minutes into the talk and we can see it!

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: How many of you... So I saw a hand who used it. How many of you liked it? [Pause] OK. That's actually more hands than I thought. And I'm seeing one guy here that's doing, "Hell no." Can I ask why?

Audience 1: Well, it pegged Firefox to about a half a gig of memory. And then my computer in the office. It was clunky and it started to blow and it was acting more. And the next thing you know, when I'm home they have to evacuate the entire section of Seattle because of radiation.

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: I'm telling you, it was a "Serenity" backfire. I don't know.

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: How many people did have problems in terms of their hardware? For example, their browser really not being able to handle it?

I personally found that Chrome--you know, Google plays nice with Google, so it actually flew on Chrome. How many people had problems just with that sort of glitchiness?

Speaker 3: Well, it didn't like Firefox very much.

Robin Smail: It really didn't like Firefox, did it? Yeah. And of course that's what a lot of us are using. Until Chrome came out.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: So, yeah, there were problems. Let's put it that way. I've had people who literally would get in--and this was my all-time high: I taught a how-to, hands-on workshop for Google Wave, we got 60 people in. We had standing room because people wanted to come in and see what was going on. And because of all of the drain and all of the pull, only a third of the people could actually get online.

They got basically--you can't stop the signal, got stopped in its tracks. Nobody could access, which meant nobody could then collaborate, which meant they're sitting here in front of a laptop and they're saying, "Yeah, why am I here again?" And that was a real problem.

How many of you--so I'm just trying to get a sense of where you were. How many of you got into Google Wave when it was a developers sandbox? So that's when you had to fight everybody to get the invites, you had this smooth and see, "Hey, do you have something? Let me get in there. Let me see what's going on." Now I'm seeing the hands. "Yeah, I got a six-pack. You got an invite? Uh-huh? OK."

So at that point in time, how many of you didn't get in or didn't even look at it until it opened up to everyone--the quote-unquote "magical launch"--about two months before they killed it? [Pause] I find that interesting.

And one last thing, those of you who used it, those of you who tried it while it was still in the developers sandbox, how many of you actually went back to it after the launch? [Pause] Interesting. Two. Thank you. I appreciate it. One hand for something.

So that's really interesting. It's about what I find. It's everybody.

So, like I said, people didn't like it, right, because it took a lot of things...

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: And this picture is great, but I apologize. It is a little dark. Boundaries: I'll stay out of your horn, you stay out of my thieving.

It was one of those things where I got a lot of push back that people weren't ready for this kind of collaboration. Right? People weren't ready. It's like, "Wait, I do IM just fine. I don't know where to go in this wave. People are talking in it! Stuff is showing up all the time! I'm very confused! This is totally harshing my calm!"

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: And they didn't like it. They literally--I had people who wanted to separate back out and go back. Stupid people.

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: So, complications. How come it never goes smooth? You know, I think that one of the biggest problems with Google Wave was that, typically, when Google decides to launch something into a beta, they're about 80% of the way there. They've got a nice application that they've put a lot of work into. They make sure that they're placed well with others. Everything's all nice and pretty. And we have the user experience that has actually been thought through.

But they didn't have that in the developers sandbox. That's because it was a developers sandbox.

We got in probably earlier than we should have. Right? Everybody heard it was the next big thing. But it wasn't ready for prime time. It was, "Hey, developers, come in and take a look at this. It's a completely revolutionary way of talking to people, of collaborating, of keeping everything in one place." And we were toast.

So they tried to fix it. They tried to actually do things with it. They tried to help us, the users. They collected feedback as were going through everything for those probably about eight months that it was in developers sandbox, and we were all either complaining about it or saying, "Oh, God, this is cool! Now what do we do with it?" or we were saying, "Geez, now what?" But I think it was a little bit 'too little, too late'.

For those of you who actually never went back after the launch, you would have found that they had actually taken feedback and now there were templates, right? So there was a meeting template, an agenda template, a brainstorming template, some of those same things that those of us who actually kept with it and really were the hardcore techies and wanted to play with it, we kind of got to that point and said, "OK, we need to have a template. We need to have a jumping-off point."

And we created our own template. They actually folded that into the launch. They put in there--we said, "Hey, I have no idea where somebody added something new, and I don't want to go back to that. What are you talking about? I don't want to go searching through this when you get 130 people on a wave." Right?

How many of you were on the HighEdWeb wave when it started out, because I know a lot of you were, right? And all of us were saying, "Oh, my God, oh, my God! Information overload! Man, I need a beer!"

And it was one of those things where it was really hard. It was hard to keep it.

So then Google, when they actually did the launch, they went back to the user experience and they had green pointer arrows and green icons that would let you step through anything new since the last time you looked at it. Great idea. It made it a lot easier.

But you know what? They just sort of missed the boat because everybody who got there, we didn't want to go back.

So, appearance. A man walks down the street in a hat like that, people know he's not afraid of anything.

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: I have an omission here. I forgot my Jayne hat. It's upstairs. I know. I blame it on Tito.

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: But the appearance, for the hardcore people, we didn't care. We thought it was great. Right? But for the people who were getting in there who knew Google as Google wanted you to know them--'We're high, we're here, and we're helpful. We have all these lovely tools. Come to us, please, so that we can secretly track what you're doing and we can index everything. But we're not going to tell you that.'

So, really, it just came to show that on Wave, where everybody told Google, "Hey, you know what? You really struck out on this one. Even geniuses can have things to be problematic." And they were really excited about it. It was new. It was revolutionary. It was what they wanted.

So, suddenly, they're a little bit besmirched, right?

Some people get wine, some people get crappy rainsticks. And a lot of us, a lot of people thought that they got the crappy rainstick. They thought, 'This is a joke," and this isn't what they're interested in. I just liked the slides. Some people didn't.

So Google took a lot of beating for this, and a little bit of concern certain people had, but more importantly, suddenly, Google is not the end-all/be-all. Suddenly there's a black mark on their name. Suddenly there's something that people don't like, and they don't like that when that happens.

So they kept getting out there with tutorials. Did you ever see the tutorials, the videos? And every so often you'd get another video that popped up about, "Hey, this is really cool! Look at what you can do here!" and "Look, we have tutorials now! Go and look at this!" Right?

Well, whether you tried to teach us about learning about being scary, whether you tried to teach us about how to carry, it really didn't matter. You sort of missed the boat.

So Google thought about it. I'm really upset about it because, really, it came down to what's in it for me, and then the bottom line was, when they launched it, nobody came back. I mean, nobody in this room went back. I'm sorry--one person went back after it actually launched. Right?

So they had a problem with that one. And if you recall, they've had a couple of problems. Anybody use Buzz?

[Laughter]

Speaker 2: No, but I turned it off when they forced it on my phone.

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: Uh-huh. So, show of hands: anybody uses Buzz? How many people tried Buzz?

Speaker 4: For about 10 minutes.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

[Laughter]

Speaker 2: Until I could figure out how to turn it on.

Robin Smail: I watched the Twitter stream on that. And then it got really bad because we kept getting the repeat signal, right? So we'd be following our Twitter stream, but then all of the people who then fed their Twitter stream into Buzz, and so you'd breathe it in the Twitter stream, you'd breathe it in the Buzz, did it add anything productive to you? Not so much. We had that problem.

So here we have Google Wave. Hmm. Google Buzz. Hmm. Anybody get the news earlier this week about GOOG-411?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Robin Smail: How many of you used that? [Pause] How many knew about it? [Pause] Wow.

So GOOG-411 basically was free directory assistance. It was awesome because then I could have them text my cell, and after they looked the information up for me, then I had them text it to myself, so I'd add it to my contacts. Everything was awesome. I really liked that.

And you know what? They didn't have enough adoption. And because they didn't have enough adoption, they're not going to continue that.

Now there's also another caveat to it. And I think this is part of what they've done with Google Wave. They learned from their lessons. They learned from their mistakes.

So they take the underlying things that were good, they take the data collection that they did with GOOG-411, and now they're actually going to feed it back into their application for voice recognition. Kind of cool.

Still, it means that my GOOG-411 is gone. I'm not real happy about that, but, really, it's a matter of perspective, right?

They cut their losses, they take a look at it, they say, "Yeah, for us it doesn't work out. For you?"--yeah, there's not enough of us out here that's really going to matter. So, really, it's about your point of view.

Sometimes, being stranded naked in the middle of nowhere can be considered going well.

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: I will tell you that many people thought that we were in the same freezing wave. And this is what I want to say back. It's not about the tool. My favorite thing to say is, "Use the tool, don't be a tool." Right?

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: And in all honesty, that's all technology is. That's all that Google is. Google is a service that does many things. They make tools, they make applications for us to use, but by all means, in the end, it's still a tool. If it doesn't work for you, then you shouldn't be using it.

Google Wave actually worked for us because what was important for us was the collaboration.

I still maintain that that is one of the best things that we had going for our group, because we were starting to get our tech people, and that was the drawback because it was the tech people, not just our... It wasn't the more common staff assistants and things of that nature, but it was people who actually wanted to use it.

They were out, we were collaborating, and they were being heard. So they had a priority.  

Oh, here's my reward. Sometimes you get a life, sometimes you get a dumpstick that sounds like it's raining. And in the end Google is about survival and Google is about image and Google is about reputation and Google is about being Google, so they decided to get rid of it because, sometimes, you're too pretty for God to let you die. So in the end, they cut their losses.

And now I want to ask you something, because this came up yesterday in a discussion: how many of you trust Google?

Speaker 2: Yeah, define trust.

Speaker 3: Define trust. Yeah.

Speaker 2: I trust Google to give me directions on my phone.

[Laughter]

Speaker 2: I don't trust Google to use my information, no.

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: You don't trust them to use it? Oh, I trust that they will.

Speaker 2: Oh, I don't trust them to use it in a way that I might want them to. How's that?

Robin Smail: Ah, so basically using their power--not using their powers for good but evil.

Speaker 2: Or for profit.

Robin Smail: More for profit!

Speaker 3: No one's... we know they are.

Speaker 2: If you have to specify that... in a way, yeah.

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: Well, and I think that's a valid point, right? I mean, Google has been--think about their story. In the end, it was about these two guys that got together. Here's a great success story. Google, they were fun, they were perky, they were hip, they were happenin', they came out with really cool things.

And we've seen over the past, what, decade, they've decided to go--you've seen a lot of change, right? You get this "Don't be evil." You get this using my information and making sure that where I am geographically, where I am what I do, people that I'm in touch with. You see all of these new applications. But you know that they're getting more information.

And I think that we're getting to a point where as social networking comes in and interactions and humanity and people and contact and engagement, people are having conversations and trust becomes an issue.

Speaker 5: It's like Bill Gates...

Robin Smail: She says, "Just like the Bill Gates when he began versus the Bill Gates when he got big." And I would totally agree with that.

Speaker 4: I have to say, though: Google is way scarier than Microsoft ever was.

Robin Smail: Yes. Microsoft was lethargic. Google is scary.

Speaker 4: Google, yeah.

Speaker 2: Well, the difference was in the Microsoft age, they made applications and you kept stuff under your computer. They didn't really have access to everything that you do. Now with Google, you're using Google Docs, you're putting all the money that you're extorting from your university in your Google spreadsheet. They have that.

Robin Smail: Right.

Speaker 3: You're opening Google Chrome, surfing the internet.

Robin Smail: Exactly.

Speaker 3: Remember, too, that Micro--

Speaker 2: That's true. Oh, yeah. I've got to mind that. But the technology is different now.

Speaker 3: Remember, Bill Gates, when he started out, he had this whole thing of 'a computer on every desktop in every home'.

Speaker 2: With Microsoft Windows on them.

Speaker 3: Running Microsoft Windows.

Robin Smail: Right.

Speaker 3: That was the empire. And Google, it seems like they want to be able to control all your information so that they can find a better way to sell a new advertising. They're essentially the biggest advertising machine on the planet.

Robin Smail: Sure.

Speaker 3: So they want to know everything about you because then they know which stinky cheese they should sell you today.

Robin Smail: Wait, so what I'm hearing is we've got Microsoft that wanted to deal with the hardware, they wanted you to buy into their hardware, they wanted you to buy into their applications, they wanted you to buy, buy, buy. Right? They want you to upgrade your system. They want you to upgrade your software. They want to upgrade everything. So they're in it for a pure profit in terms of that.

Speaker 2: Selling a product.

Robin Smail: Now, we've got Google, different time, different place, selling data.

Speaker 2: And what they're doing actually is they want you to give them free information so that they can basically use that information to sell advertising.

Speaker 4: And the other scary thing is, if you compare Microsoft Office to Google Docs, with Microsoft Office, at least you've got the program and you can continue to use it. If Google decided that Google Docs wasn't profitable, they can just turn it off and everything's gone. And that's exactly what happened to Wave.

Robin Smail: Well, it's what happened to Wave. It's what happened to GOOG-411. Things change. You go into your Docs, things change and you don't realize that they've changed. You go into your contacts, things change, you don't realize that they've changed. So, yeah, it's the give-and-take, right, through actually working in the cloud. Right?

So the convenience of working in the cloud, of being able to watch where we are and be able to have access to our data everywhere means that Google needs to be able to have the data so that we can access it, right? "There's no such thing as a free lunch." Thank you, Robert Heinlein. But there really isn't.

Speaker 2: And that's the--

Robin Smail: And you know what? It's so damn convenient to have them--

Speaker 2: Right.

Robin Smail: --take care of us.

Speaker 2: And, you know, I've been in technology long enough to see so many things come and go. I mean, RIP Geocities, right?

Robin Smail: Right.

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: Oh, dear God, Geocities! I'm dying here, folks!

Speaker 2: Yeah, but the thing is it's like, OK, so I use Google Docs, I use Dropbox--I love Dropbox.

Robin Smail: Oh, yes.

Speaker 2: But the thing is, if they don't last, and they won't--nothing lasts forever; the technology changes--all your stuff, you don't really have it. I mean, with Dropbox, you have a copy and everything period.

Robin Smail: Well, with Dropbox, you have a copy--

Speaker 2: Right.

Robin Smail: --but it's still out there, right?

Speaker 2: It's still out there. And with the Google Docs, if they decide, "Hey, we're not getting enough good information to sell to advertisers out of this," just like Wave, they can pull the plug and they're just like, "Whoa!"

So that is the big problem as we're throwing everything out there where we don't even have it physically where we can watch down our own computer. It's out there, and we're really at the mercy of the providers like Google and what happened with Wave.

Robin Smail: Exactly. And how many of you use the Google Docs and the Google Suite? Let's say just the Google Suite for the ability to collaborate with other people that you work with, do things with, just because it's convenient.

Speaker 2: Right.

Robin Smail: Right? So I still maintain this is... And again, I'm sorry that it's dark, but if you were to see it, great slide! It says, "Choice. May have been the losing side, not sure it was the wrong one."

And I kind of feel that way because, quite frankly, it was the collaboration, the real-time collaboration that we used, that we don't have anything like that anymore.

So, yes, I understand that they're going to break it down and re-use some of the parts, because parts are parts, but in the end, you're at their mercy with your information, with our data, and here's a good one--how do you get your information out of Wave? I guess nobody really has to worry about that except for those few of us who actually did it.

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: Anybody have any questions? Anybody have any thoughts? This is actually something that I think is far better as a discussion just because people have real ideas about it. And I think even non-tech people are starting to slowly get the understanding that, "Oh, man. Wow, they've got a lot of our information."

Sir.

Audience 2: One thing I hear is... how hard it is to move from...?

Robin Smail: I'm sure it's being done.

Audience 2: Well, true. And to me, that's the scary part .So they are selling advertising instead of ignoring us.

Robin Smail: We worry about cops profiling us and yet Google does it to all of us every single day.

Audience 2: Yeah, but Google basically...

Robin Smail: Well, at least Google's an equal-opportunity profiler.

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: Right?

Speaker 3: I don't know profilers...

Robin Smail: You had to comment.

Speaker 2: You know, I used it for a bit. But the problem I discovered with Wave was, number 1, if you have more than two people involved, the fact that everything was coming at you two different ways meant that I was never sure if conversation was possible.

Whereas with email, you know everything in Gmail, it was asynchronous. But at least it would thread in the way that it wasn't continually coming back and popping at me  and trying to get me to go in three different directions.

Robin Smail: I would agree with you to a point. Absolutely, because I see that they had taken that once people got used to it, once the learning curve had started, people were and, and the user experience came in. The UI--they actually started to put in the queues, the visual queues about what's new, and they made the visual queues actually visible when they launched it--was a big move in the right direction.

But as you said, so many people got in there and they played with it, they threw it around, they kicked the tires, and they were like, "Yeah, this is lacking."

And Google is always saying, "Hey, if this isn't ready for prime time. This isn't even in alpha or beta. This is developers." And we sort of ignored that.

Audience 3: I think part of the problem, though, was just the hype surrounding it.

Speaker 2: Oh, my God.

Audience 3: It blew up into 'the greatest thing ever'. No one really knew what it was.

Speaker 2: It's the next segue.

Audience 3: Yeah!

Speaker 2: Replaces the...

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: Oh, my God. It was exactly the next segue.

[Laughter]

Speaker 3: Even up to the 30-foot cliff.

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: Even up to the 30-foot... and on that note, before we jump over the cliff, my time is up. They're waving at me. Thanks for actually participating. Go somewhere and have fun.

[Applause]