SOC2: "Hella Drop Shadow": Presenting and Teaching in the Era of the Backchannel

Robin Smail: I'm Robin Smail also known as Robin Togo. I work at Penn State University as a disruptive technologist and, yes, I was there when the bad stuff happened.

Lori Packer: Hi, I'm Lori Packer, sorry. I'm from the University of Rochester.

Patti Fantaske: I am Patti Fantaske and I'm also from Penn State.

Robin Smail: Wait, because...am I talking? Well, if I'm talking, that is the problem is I cannot see like half of you, so I feel like we are not connecting so I want to connect. So hella drop shadow how many people, just taking a bull, how many people were here last year? OK, let me try that again. How many people were not here at HighEdWeb '09? Wow!

All right, yeah, nothing happened and you're here for no reason. So of those people, put your hands back up, those people who were not here at HighEdWeb '09, you were not here, how many of you did not hear about the back channel.?

[Laughter]

Robin Smail: I have one woman in the back or do you live somewhere really exotic? Offline? OK, that right there shows you the power of the back channel. in a nutshell. You know, it's Glenda-the-good, use your powers for good not evil. We have to keep in mind with that right there just how powerful it is, how easy it is to broadcast a message, an idea, a thought, a meme, hella drop shadow.

I also want to say though it's always been there, right? So like did you ever pass notes in class? I did. Do you ever get yelled at for the talking? Yeah, I know, shocker, I did. So all of these ideas, all of these disruptions, as we call them, are in fact us. We've had it. It's been there. We've been a part of that.

The thing that's different now is that, man, we've got an awesome megaphone and I don't mean me. We literally have -- we are so immediately connected to people around the country, around the globe that everybody hears, except for the minor one or two individuals, everybody hears about things that happen when they are not there.

And I bet you guys had an opinion when you heard about it, too. That's the thought.

Lori Packer: And I guess the point I wanted to make at the beginning was that the -- Robin's point that there's always been something that you can think about as a back channel. Even if you've been in a classroom or a presentation situation and you know you're losing your audience or you in an audience that is in the process of being lost, there were always ways in which to express your pleasure or displeasure with whatever it was you're experiencing; everything from tuning out and checking your email or reading the newspaper.

That sends signals to the presenter on the stage, to your fellow audience members about what is happening on stage, for example. The difference now is that a moment where -- a momentary -- we'll call it a glitch at the moment, that was experienced by the 30 immediate people around you is no longer localized where we've kind of busted out of that geolocation and idea where everything is happening in real geophysical space.

And a whisper to your friend about, wow, this guy is talking too fast or, wow, this guy is kind of -- this is more basic than I thought. That is not a whisper to your friend anymore because your friend is also your follower on Twitter and he's also got 200 followers and she's got 800 followers and you've tagged it so that people who aren't even at the event can find it as well.

And it not only becomes public, it becomes pseudo-permanent, it's the word they use. It's findable, it's out there. It's not a moment in time, it disappears any more. The moment in time is a little frozen and accessible after the time. So not only have we broken out of geophysical space, we've broken out of space and time, too. You don't have to have been there on the day to experience what's happening and find out about it later on.

So what are the technologies that people have available to them now? Oh, yeah, we have graphics, yehey. We are really slick of it. Everything from, you know, the guy in the audience reading the newspaper can now post in real-time micro blog updates about why he's displeased with what's going on in the stage through a tool like the Twitter or posters or even stream it live of what was happening. I think we've also seen examples of -- I'm trying to think of the one -- I tried to get through this morning without a float of a filly reference and it's not going to happen, sorry.

The case in Philadelphia where the famous don't -- the fan that kind of ran out on to the field and got teased and that was, of course, on live television but it was also Youtubified by how many people were at the stadium and it was an interesting case of watching something that was a moment in time that happened that people would rarely experience but the people who were trying to control what happened in the aftermath of that completely lost control of it very quickly.

So we can continue to find these things later through the hash tag and this stuff exist now. I mean, we all have our own social media personalities or presence but we also have a way to find those specific things that we're trying to mark for other people in the future. Did you want to chime in on something?

Patti Fantaske: One of the things that I do is I am the chair of the web conference in Penn State and so the implications of what's happening out there with social media is that we have to change the way we have to do things and actually, we're going to look to you at a little bit to help change that because you're not only our audience but we want to have more of a conversation with you and to find out what you're doing and to bring you in and not just in the back channel. where we could have things go on that have happened before.

But one of the things that, you know, we want to have you thinking about things, what are the implications of technology changing to the classroom, to conferences, what is my duty in my hat as a conference organizer? What do I need to do to make sure that you have a good situation, that you get a lot out of the conference but also see that your presenters do as well.

So technology changes that. Having a back channel. changes that a lot as we're going to talk about it in a little bit. And also we want to think about how we can capitalize on the technology not just with conferences but also in the classroom because, let's face it, we're all here because we're working hard. So what are some of the uses of social media to conferences? How do you guys use it?

Speaker 1: OK, this, in case you're not aware, this is where you guys have to actually participate.

[Laughter]

Speaker 1: This is -- hello, is anybody out there? I cannot...

Speaker 2: That is how we do it. It took a lot of iPads. Do you want us to answer on live channel?

Speaker 1: Well, we're managing both, right? And isn't that interesting that we're managing both. One of the things we want to do in the social media group, Mark and I both share this is particular set, and we're really not -- and unfortunately, Mark has been sitting at the back but you remember part of this conversation as you can see now. So you noticed he's got a... He has an iPad going on the screen and I've got my phone and I want to see and what I want to remind you as we go through this, we'll watch it, right?

Not necessarily because you think that we expect you to be bad, he's probably going to get there but because you want to gauge between that. We want to understand where you're going with this. We want if we're missing our targets I really have to catch it at the very beginning and not after you got the...

Robin Smail: And one of the things that you may not realize is we have somebody sitting back there smiling and watching everything what's going on and so if questions come up, she can say, "Hey, somebody back here said they have this question but I guess they don't want to say it out loud."

So we're also monitoring it with help which is something that needs to be thought about as we're doing all of these because whether you know it or not, with the back channel., you're part of any presentation that you're sitting in.

Lori Packer: And we already had an experience yesterday that was interesting to me, any way, during our orientation session where we kind of started -- people in the session started talking about how best to use the back channel. over the back channel. because of a suggestion from someone who wasn't at the conference about a better use of the hash tag and it was really interesting to me because, I mean, I know of course that there are people who are using the back channel. who aren't physically here and want the back channel. to be useful to them but that's a whole a lot of group. There's people here who wanted to use the back channel. to make it interesting and useful to them while they're physically here.

Speaker 1: You ask them a question, how did they use those...

Lori Packer: That's true, how do you --

Speaker 1: How do you -- how they've been using it over the past year?

Speaker 3: I'm going to pass the mics are on so we can give this up for podcasting. OK, here you go.

Speaker 4: Thanks.

So, yeah, when I'm in the zone and I'm looking at the back channel., I'm listening to you, I'm glancing out at your slides and I'm taking in what other people are saying about this. I'm trying to contribute what I can. I'm also checking out what's going on in the conferences I can't go to. And if I do it correctly and actually very engaged and you become the interruptive technology when you pull me out of that to say what -- and so it's a choice, I think, still between engaging that way which is almost solitary in a way and deferred because I'm thinking about what will I come back to later.

It's my way of taking notes. It's a choice between that and saying, well, let me put that down and actually engage with what's happening right here, right now and that's kind of cool. That's sort of a new phenomenon, right, relatively.

Speaker 1: Right, well, and that's exactly, have you been looking this side? It takes like maybe two seconds to go to the...

Speaker 5: I have to say though, I mean, that's a difference between your little panel discussion and, well, hella drop shadow not Jared, whatever we want to call it. When we were, I mean, the slides, the presentation, well, is different because it had just so much text and it was -- everyone just stopped paying attention. I think that's something you can learn to is that the days of having 15 bullet points on a slide, I think, are over.

I don't know. You don't have 15 bullet points on a slide, do you?

Speaker 1 : No, no, no, I was thinking that we're starting and I don't blame you just having been jumped in and I wonder if it will be helpful for people who wanted to have a real brief overview of the conference, what happens, when it happens that everybody's connected to the top. So I think that's a very delicate form. So let's talk.

Last year we had two keynotes, not one. One is a speaker who is very comfortable and we have them on day two. On day one we had a speaker and this is not about blame, all right? I want to put that out there. I wanted to make sure that everybody is keen on this is not about blame but this is what happened, we had somebody who had to a, who was paid to go to a conference and give a keynote speech and his audience have more technical knowledge, broad understanding, presentation skills perhaps, certainly communication skills and there was this guy and it started on a very, very, very good at that.

This was why... and it have -- if I remember this correctly... and there was twice a drop shadow.

[Laughter]

Speaker 1: I believe the reference is made. This how many start, hella drop shadow. Now that is all it took, right?

Speaker 6: That is, he always spouts everything.

Speaker 1: So he can forgive a bad slide, fortunately. But think about the combination, I think, they were trying to do with keynote or what keynote speaker really -- any speaker is fine to, they're trying to engage you and in order to engage you, I've got to be half-way intelligent to meet your expectation.

You're going to have to learn something or at least point to a discussion to what is relevant or something that a guy can take away... my slides will be somewhat clear which may be one of my assets. They are my slides, so you know... So my slides have to -- with my new slides, constructing my own message. What happens within that slide, right? What happens when I'm talking about something and also engaged elsewhere, right, that I don't know -- I know something is going on but I have not idea what it is. That's a bad...

Lori Packer: And Robin forgot about the video.

Speaker 7: Yesterday during the orientation that kind of happened because they're talking about things were starting on and there was that full back channel. conversation about what aspect you use to split it out and all that and I actually missed a lot of it but it was actually said about where you are going to be like paying attention to the back channel.

Speaker 1: It's hard, isn't it?

Speaker 7: Yeah.

Speaker 1: I mean, there were times when I would really have to turn it off, throw it away, if I may be honest. I almost -- and you have very good point and I have to turn to -- oh, Ron, you're kidding me.

Lori Packer: We have a bad channel.

Speaker 8: So, Tony, where does the responsibility lie, though? Isn't that your responsibility to pay attention to what you want to pay attention to? I'm just saying that --

Tony: What I'm saying that what happened is that your audience is paying attention elsewhere and that's my point is there had to be a lot of reasons and we're all trying to multi-task... we have this point.

Speaker 8: Right. So I think the challenge for speakers, especially a keynote speaker, is they have to be compelling enough that they want to pay attention to you and not pay attention to the bad channel and easier said than done.

Speaker 7: And the interesting thing with the issue mentioned in the orientation was that while the presentation was taking place upfront, an official presentation from HighEdWeb, there was an official question from the HighEdWeb Twitter account. So trying to pay attention to both of these.

Speaker 8: And that raises an interesting question for me which is does a back channel. belong to the people in attendance at the conference or does it belong to the people who are not at the conference?

And the reason why the official HighEdWeb Twitter account responded to that question from somebody not here was they wanted, you know, that it was an official response not somebody else responding to that. So that's the question for me even as I'm speaking, if I'm doing a presentation am I trying to put that together for the people physically there or for people not here and where should my priority lie?

And there have been actually books been written now about how to present in the era of the back channel. And one of the things they recommend is to every five or 10 minutes take a break and look at what's happening on the back channel. I personally disagree with that because my obligation is the people physically here.

I've been at a presentation where I was, you know, had my slide center screen, left and right of the screen in front of 750 people was the back channel. So think as a presenter, as you're looking up at your slide you're seeing what everybody else is seeing and the audience, even if they're not on Twitter, is now seeing what everybody else is seeing. And I think the problem and challenges that as a presenter I'm always struggling with what I want people watching me, watching my slides or all of a sudden the back channel. is up there so where are they paying attention? So lots of hands are going up over here.

Audience: You know, I think of all [18:52 Unintelligible]

Robin Smail: One thing that I think we need to keep in mind now with the back channel. and the awareness of it is presentations are no longer one-to-many, it's many-to-many now. And so we as the back channel. are part of it and we're helping others pres -- and we're asking questions and we're helping these presenters as they present as well. So to me that's something very important and we need to keep in mind when we are presenting and when we are at the back channel. because as the back channel. we are also presenting them.

Patti Fantaske: And that's one of the main points that we wanted to bring to you is that in any situation whether it be a conference or a classroom, everybody has responsibilities. And for me as a conference organizer, I need to put my speakers in a position where they can succeed and I need to put the people attending the conference in a situation where they can be comfortable and engaged and have what they need to make it through the day. The speakers which clearly the person in hella drop shadow did not live up to the responsibility of being prepared for your audience.

And you -- yeah, that's the responsibility of the speaker. And the audience has responsibilities, too. What do you see as just responsibility as an audience?

Audience: I don't know.

Speaker 9:[20:18 Unintelligible]

Audience: Some of them just said we can't hear you at that, you know, no one could hear him. His mic was always off. So some of them told him right now that they can't hear me. As an audience sitting there whispering to each other saying, "Oh, my God, no one can hear him." No one gave him that feedback. You could have been slightly better if the audience had worked with him.

Speaker 10: And this presentation was geared to a -- it wasn't like this, it wasn't here to encourage you back feed or to broadcast. That was the main... it wasn't the opportunity except to be rude and abrupt.

Audience: You have to though. Cause if someone is like... up there have been talking and they think they are clear but the mic is almost off and say like, stop, there is no point to this until you turn your mic is on.

Audience: What happened last night, someone said, "Hey, guess what, you turned off your mic."

Audience: Yeah, and then it gets better.

Speaker 8: Right, so that to me is an interesting analogy because a conference organizer at that point would walk up and fix that problem.

Audience: Or should.

Speaker 8: Or should. Given what happened here last year should somebody have walked up and always try to indicate to him that he's totally lost, I mean, he was completely hands off that your conference organizer, one of people involved with conferences, so you think a conference organizer, if the thing you want that badly should have interceded at some point to try to get things back on track.

Audience: There was so much involved.

Audience: Who's trying to talk to the chair?

Audience: I think, I would say [21:47 Unintelligible]

Speaker 8: But bad presentation.

Audience: So my responsibility is not just to organize the... It is our responsibility at that point in time that somebody -- the mic is not working. We go out and find on that or can't hear that I think is an ideal for a secretary.

Speaker 9: Maybe it's seems more extreme like in hind set like looking back and thinking about the presentation last year is being like there was all these issues but kind of like you mentioned like it being a broadcast. It was almost like I don't even know if these mics are going out or any point, he could have been talking at the same volume the entire time it was that everyone else's voices start coming up a little bit. And the conversation at your table became louder than the conversation that he was having with us from the front of the room.

Audience: And then the conversation on the back channel was extraordinarily loud, wasn't it? Because what will it take -- it took people, an audience sitting not... not being able to really engaged in what we have to say, not being interested in what they have and suddenly somebody wants to be...

Speaker 11: There again. Hello. You know, seeing it -- the other side of the country while this was happening last year, I kept thinking at what point that this turn from being a talk into being a spectator sport? And the moment...and the moment -- yeah, and the moment that happened, it was like the talk at that point, even if he was able to make a point, he'd already lost.

And the worst thing about it to me, and I thought about this a lot because we did a conference last year in Seattle where we were talking about -- what were losing our newspaper, talking about the death of newspapers we had the back channel. behind us and one person got up and start yelling at somebody else and the whole thing exploded. And all of a sudden we're all over Twitter but I'm watching this the conversation in the room essentially stops because everyone is now looking behind me at the screen.

And all they could think of all this last year was, number one, where were the organizers who tried to jump into the middle at some point and tried to adjust something at the front at least get a pause, and the second thing I thought was, why isn't there an ombuds person sitting there with a computer, with the right at any point to say there's a question on Twitter right now, could you answer it? Where is the referee in this because this --

Audience: Right now, it seems that the referee is sitting up here and over here and over there and... because we haven't heard all the point on that and I think what we are all trying to learn, we are still trying to navigate: where are the responsibilities, who should be handling what, when is it appropriate to "interlog" the back channel.

Patti Fantaske: You know, just before we go on for a couple of things, I wanted to make sure that we talked about I found at last night actually Alex is in the audience here. He works at Purdue and they're actually being proactive in the classroom as far as social media in getting students to do things and I asked him if he could talk about that a little.

Alex: Thank you. Well, our conversation last night was around Hot Seat. Maybe you guys have seen this on Twitter, in the news lately. It's kind of a social tool for the students in the classroom and - like she said it's the back channel. Students can be engaged by the faculty member. They can post a topic for the specific lecture and then the students can ask questions on that topic while the professor is giving their lecture.

And this has been -- we've seen this worked really well in larger classrooms where the students were kind of a little bit timid to ask questions and stop the class.

We've also seen this work outside of the classroom, too. So the professor can post a topic then it becomes like a homework or assignment or a way to collaborate outside of the classroom and then the students can go and give their thoughts. And those thoughts also have a reputation system, too, where you can vote in thumbs-up and comment on that as well. And Steve here is actually presenting tomorrow on reputation system so that's a good thing to go. Check out in this space. Thank you.

Speaker 11: One of the -- yeah.

Audience: Hot Seat, that's a really interesting piece of software... well, that as a combination so yours is in kind of methods for a couple of things but, yeah, it's very nice.

Alex: Yeah, and one last closing thought on the Hot Seat and a lot of times we try and make these tools that we just expect everyone to like jump in and use, like, oh everyone is going on board on this. More times than not that's just simply isn't the case. So whenever we're like looking at developing new tools one of the things that we look at is like how can we make it so that they don't have to change any of their existing behavior. So with Hot Seat it's like you can answer a question over Twitter or you can go into Facebook and answer it there or you can just go into the native app and do to that but it's all really tied into the same platform.

Speaker 8: Now we've been talking about -- and this is actually what I wanted to talk about. Now, one of the things that's interesting is that the back channel. can go bad on good speakers as well. I don't know how many people here know Danah Boyd. To me she is one of the most knowledgeable people about social media and how it gets used by teenagers and she did experience last year right, around the same time, that I think it was a Web 2.0 conference, correct, so where the back channel. went terrible and Robin happened to be there.

And to me it illustrates that this can happen to good speakers as well and raises the question about responsibility again; who's responsible for what happened to Danah Boyd last year?

Is there -- I think that sometimes the back channel. can feed on itself and get the mob mentality and it can get out of control very quickly. And I think that happened here last year. I think it happened with Danah last year. And where is the responsibility? Was it responsibility of the conference organizer somehow to get involved with that?

One of the things I'm trying to do during the course of the next two days is not that I expect anything bad to happen but I'm monitoring, you know, it's part of my role as chair of this track to see what's happening in the back channel., address issues somebody brought up before in the first session that the WiFi wasn't working in here. We were able to address that very quickly and to me that's the power of the back channel. But if the conversation starts to get off point, either there's something terrible happen and the presenter didn't know what was going on in the back channel., I would probably stop the proceedings and just have a quick word. But anyway, let's talk a little bit about Danah Boyd last year.

Robin Smail: Danah Boyd is a very well known speaker. She speaks to basically she jumps into team social identity and Harvard announced that and Microsoft.

Danah Boyd is used to having slides and she had slides that are very graphic oriented so it's a picture about something in order to highlight the point in her talk. That would have worked but she is limited as a method of marketing... So Danah actually brought a new talk... she wanted to try that. She was excited about it about the research she had done. This is the setup at how that adds Web 2.0. There are two speakers. There's a speaker here, there's a speaker there are. There are two screens and half of her screen was here and here are some slides, right? The podium was actually here, OK.

The podium was set straight out to the audience and the podium is a flat top. So what people don't know about Danah Boyd that when she is comfortable with her slides in her talk she has it memorized but she hasn't written out so that she doesn't lose the stage, she doesn't lose the flow, she's not going to... So Danah is standing here and, oh, yes, one last thing, on this screen right behind me where you can't look at me without looking at the screen was the back channel.

All right then that was... So Danah starts and people are tired, she's relaxed, she's an academic speaker, she's very, very interesting. She's very -- but Danah is a little corralled because the audience is starting not to pay attention.

And she's losing them... and what happens is this, Danah starts to get nervous and you can see it because she doesn't know what's going on and she's starting to do some trouble... Danah can't see her slides. Danah has a speech in Quantico which is clearly visible to everybody else but she's not paper and Danah has gone careless because something is going on and she doesn't know what it is.

Danah shuts down and she starts to speak very fast, with much to do, being meticulous. So she's reading a paper, she's trying to get on stage, she's trying to run through it and people are laughing and laughing and laughing and the reason why is because there is nothing but snark going up the back channel talking about, "Hey, Danah, take a break. Hey, Danah, why don't you take a drink? Hey, Danah, why don't you breathe?" Right?

But Danah had no -- not on her visual cues. She had none of the cues in terms of how she could actually give a speech. How she could actually behave to their audience. Now whose responsibility was that this time? Who failed? Was it Danah? My feeling is that the organizers failed on that one. I think that the listening to the back channel I think it was good. I think it's putting in and encouraging... immediate distraction from my message. If you're really have on your laptop, if you have it on the phone, that's one thing but putting up here visually is really...

Patti Fantaske: And we've had conversations when we first -- when Twitter sort of first became a part of this conference or at least my experience of this conference, was in Springfield, I guess, in 2008 that would have been, and we had the back channel. projected on the screens during the meal time breaks and it was great. It was fun and we were trending topic for that entire conference. It was October 2008, presidential election was going on and we were beating searches on like Obama, Barack Obama in October 2008.

We were thrilled. It was really exciting and interesting. Last year, we were trending topic for one hour. Guess which hour? And when you become a trending topic bad things happen or it can happen because you suddenly get, now you get noticed by not just other people, you get noticed by all kinds of robots and spambots that try to chip in about irrelevant things. But we had talked about should we ever do a back channel. projection like that for speakers and we haven't yet. I think if a speaker ever wanted to do it, we totally would. We'd figure out a way to accommodate it.

But in my opinion, having that happening while you're presenting and there's a little you can kind of do to adjust to it or maybe if that's how present, that's fine but has anyone ever been to an event where that was done and it worked or just have other experiences just like that?

Audience: She was strong.

Patti Fantaske: That's mean.

Speaker 8: They didn't tell her the back channel. was going to be there and she's also up on a stage where the lights were so bright that she could not see the audience. There was no way for her to react. She had no idea, she couldn't see them.

Audience: They haven't tried to solve that.

Speaker 9: But I was a t a conference earlier this year and they did put the back channel. up for the keynote speakers probably because of what happened, well, here. But I think that there's a lot of thought that if you projected upon a screen, people aren't going to be as snarky because their name is on a screen.

And, well, it depends on the conference, I think.

Audience: I supposed so.

Speaker 9: I think conferences like ours, we tend to be happy to see our names up there but others, you know, I thought it actually killed the back channel. when they did that because nobody in that conference really wanted to twit about what was going on, so.

Audience: But what's really interesting about that was after the Web 2.0, after that awful experience, the very next day they kept the back channel. on, they kept it out of the way and I don't know what they were using but what they did is they authorized -- so I think they publicly favored them to have Facebook feeds and were allowed to pass right there.

Audience: That will just made me snarky.

Audience: Well, yeah, but you're smart, you show them what the back channel. and if your confident you will show up in the back channel.

Audience: I'm amazed that a lot of people go into how little thought was put in visible space of the lecture or talk so that the slides could be up here, the speakers up here and the slides were just behind her.

And I always wonder why would you actually sit down and attempt to juju a talk or mince a talk and look at if something was wrong then fix it and then listen to the back channel to fix it. I mean, I think for Danah, I really felt bad because I read in a, like she's starting a quarterback in Philadelphia and she's going to be more and more and no way she's going to win it so, I'm sorry, I know too much.

Speaker 1: No, no, that's fine. I think you, I think what we're seeing here is a lot... is that as a discussion and I think we were all nervous about putting this topic in. BI think it's important to actually be rid of it and to see where we went wrong, what changes we can make over the year, and really including the responsibility all the way around on conference committee members, the audience and the back channel.

Audience: First of all, sure thing. The conference should focus on two things, the conference organizers: the success of the speakers and its success to what the speaker says getting into the heads of the audience.

Speaker 8: We have just another minute. Any other quick questions, comments?

Audience: When it comes to contributions going on that, when it comes to TV and radio when interviewing someone. Do you look up in terms of where to... When did that get in the presentation? So I guess this kind of person is for the person who says, "Hey guess what? We got to..."

Audience: It brings the help.

Speaker 8: Right.

[Laughter]

Audience: ...disappointed with back channel when this is happening.

Speaker 8: And when I was going to conferences 25 years ago, the way that you did that is you walk out and with Twitter now you don't walk out anymore because it's more fun to stay there with everybody else. I actually left last year. I did. I left last year and I was in the elevator going back up to my room. I had my phone out, stopped the elevator, came right back down because I wanted to see that first hand for better or worse.

Well, anyway, we have to cut this short, great topic, we'd be happy, I mean, all of us will talk more about this either in person, on the back channel. and it will be interesting to see how this evolves over time. Thanks everyone, make sure you fill the evaluation form out and let's continue this discussion.

[Applause]